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Indeed, Option in Scala has the same problem. I understand null is needed for backwards compatibility, but it makes Option the poor man's Maybe...


> Indeed, Option in Scala has the same problem

eh?

    scala> val safe = Option(null)
    safe: Option[Null] = None


I don't understand your objection:

  // The type of 'unsafe' is Option[String]
  var unsafe = Option("some string")
  unsafe = null
  unsafe map println
gives

  Exception in thread "main" scala.MatchError: null
effectively a NullPointerException. This would be impossible for a true Option (aka Maybe) type. The problem is introduced because Scala, for backwards compatibility reasons, still allows the assignment of null; this lowers the usefulness of pattern matching against Option types.

--

edit: you could object to my use of var (and you should). Ok, let's re-write it to be a val:

  def unsafeFunction(x: Option[String]): Option[String] = {
    x orElse null
  }

  ...

  val unsafe = unsafeFunction(None)
  unsafe map println 

...and I still get the NPE. Note that in this case you can easily see how I introduced the problem, but the point is that the signature for unsafeFunction should guarantee null is not a possible return value.


    // The type of 'unsafe' is Option[String]
    var unsafe = Option("some string")
    unsafe = null
    unsafe map println
Is complete contrived nonsense, var? Seriously, quit trolling, in Scala (immutable) val is king.

Next:

    def unsafeFunction(x: Option[String]): Option[String] = {
      x orElse null
    }
Oh yeah, that's brilliant, let's just try our hardest to come up with scenarios that never occur in the "real" world (unless we try really hard to create nullthing out of nonething).


I'm not trolling. I genuinely want to like Scala, which is why I'm disappointed by some of its design choices.

Yes, in Scala val should be king (unfortunately, it's not -- if you've taken the two Coursera courses by Odersky you'll see some use of var in the exercises, refuting your claim). But it's true val is more common, and the use of var was accidental to my point anyway (mutation wasn't the issue), hence my clarification and second example. Yes, it's pretty obvious where I introduced the mistake, I said as much. In the real world, the mistake might be harder to spot, which is why the type system shouldn't allow it.

If I understand your position correctly, it seems to boil down to "programmers will code correctly, therefore this static check (that Option must not be null) isn't needed". Which is pretty much what dynamic typing proponents have been saying all along. A pretty untenable position if you want to stay on the side of Scala...

I'd much prefer if Option were more like Haskell's Mabye, but then again, I side with static typing. I understand why, given Scala's requirements, this wasn't possible. It's just disappointing.


There's no need to be disappointed in Scala's Option, if used sensibly (i.e. not intentionally trying to break it) Option will work as advertised.

val is indeed king, var is used sparingly, look under the hood of any prominent Scala library and you'll see val-ue of immutability put into practice. Locally scoped vars can be useful, but beyond that dangers waits (not unlike Haskell's unsafePerformIO).

In terms of disappointment, I could say similar things about Haskell: I'm deeply disappointed with the eternal compile times, meaningless stack traces (no line number, heh, nice), non-existent tooling (read: null IDE), etc.

Scala lives on the JVM and has seemless interop with Java; concessions have been made, the type system will never rival that of Haskell, but then again, outside of Haskell no other mainstream language's type system rivals that of Scala.


Fair enough. I don't believe Option is only broken when "intentionally trying to break it". Of course, my example is trivial and the null is explicit. But what if it was a call to a Java method that shouldn't return null, but does because of programmer carelessness?

I agree there are pain points with Haskell as well, no language is perfect. But slow compilation... surely you're kidding when you don't see this as a problem with Scala? The compiler is SLOW. And as for IDEs, which one do you recommend? I heard good things about IntelliJ, but please don't recommend Scala IDE because to say it's inadequate would be a huge understatement. I've cursed too many times with its phantom compilation errors.


Reason appears ;-)

When calling a Java method assume a null return and wrap it up in an Option just as you'd do with Haskell when interfacing with the "outside" world.

As for Scala compilation speed, Haskell's not gonna win that battle, ghc is to scalac as scalac is to javac, which is to say, the last is first and the first is last in terms of compilation speed. Also, IIRC only Yesod provides incremental builds, no? With SBT incremental builds most code changes incur a < 1 second recompilation hit.

As for the IDE story, the secret to a performant Scala IDE is to turn off automatic builds in Eclipse and let SBT run the show. With the SBT eclipse plugin there's a setting that allows SBT compilation target and Eclipse target to be shared so you never have to clean/build in Eclipse -- this is a huge win, the difference between standard dog slow Eclipse performance, and snappy, oh this is real nice if only the haters knew, joy ;-)


I'll try that, thanks for the recommendation!


  scala> val x = Some(null)
  x: Some[Null] = Some(null)


That's pretty contrived, when would you _ever_ wrap a thing that could be null in a Some?

Even so, to continue with your example:

    scala> x foreach println
    null

    x.get
    res2: Null = null
Hey, what do you know, no NPE.

Try harder ;-)


Ok fair point re it being contrived!

Although (having just re-read it), the original post's complaint was actually that:

> the compiler (afaik) doesn't prevent you from setting an Optional field to null

ie

  scala> val option: Option[Any] = null
  option: Option[Any] = null


Exactly, that was my complaint. It makes elegant pattern matching against Option types (the whole point of using them, in fact) less than useful. Now, in Scala-land, you have to check that they aren't null, which sucks.


This complaint shows pretty well that some people have never actually used Scala.


Can you elaborate? The whole point of Option types is that I can map (for example) over them without explicitly checking what their value is, and it will work without a runtime error. Same with pattern matching.

With the introduction of null, this is no longer possible. I've just shown an example of getting an NPE while mapping over an Option[String]. Now we're back in Java-land, where I must explicitly check for nulls, read the source code of every method or trust some comment that tells me that it will never return null. (Ok, not exactly like Java-land: a Scala programmer who returns a null for a function with type Option is very inexperienced or is doing something naughty. But why does the language even allow it?)

Aside from telling me I'm wrong, can you explain why?


Scala needed to support null somehow in order to interoperate with arbitrary Java code, such as passing null as a parameter to a third-party Java library. So at least some variables should be allowed to have null. Maybe they couldn’t think of a way to prevent Option-typed variables from being null without preventing arbitrary Java interop. Making only Option types reject nulls might have been thought too hacky.

Those are just my guesses of the design rationale, working from the fact that Scala does support nulls. But perhaps Scala could have come up with a better solution that still allows null use when necessary. If you think of some syntax and elegant semantics for allowing you to forget about null for most code, I’d be interested to see your proposal.


Oh, I understand why null was needed (backwards compatibility, like you said), and I'm no language designer, so I don't know what I would have done instead. Maybe mark pieces of code that must interact with Java code with "unsafe" blocks, outside of which no nulls can escape?

  unsafe {
    ...
  }
Don't know if this would work. I'm just disappointed because this slightly breaks the Option type, that's all.


> I'm just disappointed because this slightly breaks the Option type, that's all.

I have never ever seen this happening.

The complaint feels a lot like "well, someone could use reflection and change the cached values of Integer, why don't you check that every time something returns an Integer?" to me.

null is the sad fact of running on the JVM, but pretending that it doesn't exist works 99.9999% of the time in Scala.


I know I'm beginning to sound like a broken record, but "I have never seen this happening" is a poor argument when discussing type systems. Please realize that "I've never seen a type bug like this happen" is exactly what proponents of dynamic typing will say when dismissing the burden of static typing: "I've never seen a bug caused by incorrect types. It sounds nice in theory and in your contrived examples, but in practice type errors never happen to me, therefore I don't want a type system that gets in the way."

The fact is that type system should NOT allow an Option val to be null. That's what type systems are there for. If a Scala programmer coming from a Java background wants to use null in Scala programs, the compiler will happily allow it. This is awful practice in Scala, of course, but it's allowed without warning. I've seen this happen with amateur Scala devs (and I'm ready to admit I'm an amateur with Scala too, I don't want to sound condescending).

Your remark that "null is the sad fact of running on the JVM" was what I was saying all along. Am I allowed to express disappointment that Scala's type system is compromised because of this fact?


> Your remark that "null is the sad fact of running on the JVM" was what I was saying all along. Am I allowed to express disappointment that Scala's type system is compromised because of this fact?

What I'm saying is that you are barking up the wrong tree. You need to go to Oracle and complain there if you are unhappy about nulls.


I agree that the design is a result of trading off the desire to do away with nulls vs retaining Java interoperability. Preventing (at compile time) only Options from being null is surely impossible when casting/reflection are available.

It is commonly understood that if an API returns Option[A] then the client can assume it will not return null. Personally I have never experienced a real error from this.




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