On this topic, I intend to teach my kids the three things my father told me over and over and over as a kid:

  1. A job worth doing is a job worth doing well.
  2. Winners concentrate on winning. Losers concentrate on getting by.
  3. You can do anything you set your mind to.

Here's to all the middle managers in Nevada who love their jobs :)

C'mon Ryan, the whole discussion is littered with anecdotes, and I made another one. Obviously I don't think those are the only possible outcomes... but I do think a focus on duty/achievement/service/etc is underrated in the West right now.

> On this topic, I intend to teach my kids the three things my father told me over and over and over as a kid:

That's cool and your dad sounds like a pretty solid and cool dude, and that jives with generally what I believe.

Going beyond just parenting, I do think everyone should try to excel at something - unless the middle manager is fully engaged and driven by his work, then I think it'd be good for him to strive to excel in music or art or charity or philanthropy or teaching or athletics or trying to build an amazing family or something...

I think not striving for excellence in anything is kind of sad. Why not try to push civilization forwards? Sometimes the main reasons said out loud - "well, I just want to be happy" - seem to mask other darker reasons, like fear of failure or inertia or feeling ill-equipped to make a difference. That's a damn shame. Why not strive to make some excellent contributions, in addition to striving to be happy?

Sometimes obsession with external validation masks the same things.

There are no easy answers as to what is best for any given human, but there's definitely a market for those looking for the kind of easy answers that Amy Chua is selling.

> Sometimes obsession with external validation masks the same things.

Y'know, I don't care about someone's motives if they're conducting themselves well... if someone gives to charity out of a desire to glorify themselves, that's totally okay in my book. Likewise, someone who invents just to have their name on an invention or innovation. A lot of great scientists, inventors, philanthropists, builders, and people who did good things really liked seeing their name in print. So be it, if they're doing good things.

> There are no easy answers as to what is best for any given human, but there's definitely a market for those looking for the kind of easy answers that Amy Chua is selling.

Indeed... or like the everyone is a unique snowflake craze, eh? There aren't easy answers. I dunno man, I come in here to share an alternative point of view. There's some good feedback/disagreement, but I'm a little surprised and let down by people giving the nod to really personal nasty hostility.

Yeah, both attitudes are simplistic.

Hadn't seen the hostility directed towards you until now. Not constructive as you have no ill intent.

C'mon Sebastian, you've been called on building a whole argument on an anecdote, suck it up and admit your mistake.

  4. Hard work is more important than being smart.

In the end, regardless of how they felt or their intentions, I was made out to be nothing more than an ornament, a product for the glory of the family name.

I get the impression you were not on the receiving end of this sort of treatment, and I mean the real receiving end. The constant drumbeat of criticism, the cutting remarks, the dread of never living up to the horizon of expectation, never catching it.

I hate my family for what they did, and frankly, I hate you for advocating it, for encouraging a parent to make some other child's life miserable beyond imagining so you can placate your ideal about overachieving.

I am a real god damned human being. I am not "just one of those cases" that didn't work out.

PS: The real shit-kicker is that eventually I did get it together on my own terms, with just OK grades by even my own standards and graduated from some out-of-state land grant university. Some of those other kids who got straight As or whatever, some whom went to Cal or Stanford, whom spent their youth jumping through hoops for their parents' affections, work at the same place I do, writing shitty enterprise code.

I am personally disappointed in my parents because when I decided it was easier to just skate by in life as a teen, they let me get away with it. Things are sharper now, but I wasted a huge portion of my life and they were more concerned that I didn't want to go to church any more and were placated by my athletic achievements.

So, showing your kids no love is bad, but giving in to them for short term happiness sucks too. The self-esteem movement is overdone. I know people who are afraid to tell their kids that they are fat. Honesty and direction communication among family is enabled by strong family bonds, and, particularly in East Asian cultures, Confucian values that clearly establish the roles of parent and child. It's just hard to find the right balance to get kids to maximize performance.

When you grow up learning to coast along it is hard to transition when you cant coast any more.

"Chinese mom" style helps with this. And this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deferred_gratification

Only if he'd say it to lionhearted in person, over a dinner conversation, per the HN etiquette guide. He's certainly within his rights to feel strongly about this, and to convey his belief in the harm caused by the demanding, uncompromising style of child-rearing; but there should be a way to do that with a modicum of tact.

It would seem odd if someone said "wow, this hurts would you mind backing your car off my leg" to the point where you might wonder if you had actually driven over them. However, "Back your @#%$ car off my #%^@&^ leg is less ambiguous". So, if your having dinner with the queen it's probably not appropriate but "I was deeply hurt by their actions" is somewhat emotionally ambiguous.

If I went back in time or have an opportunity to tell a kid like me growing up, I'd tell him that don't look at all of the kids who are jumping through the hoops for parents or for the Asian sub-culture. If you do your own thing, you'll be the envy of everybody else who is secretly insecure to buy into the crap.

Kinda of like in a night-club/bar, 99% of people there only hang out with people they came with; but everyone envy that one guy who came by himself to strike up conversation with strangers and don't give up a fuck about other people think.

PS: I second and confirm also the phenomenon on the East Coast. Some people who went to MIT or CMU, have resumes that Chinese mothers could only dream about, work at the same place I do along with people who went to state/community college, writing enterprise shitty code.

In the end, regardless of how they felt or their intentions, I was made out to be nothing more than an ornament, a product for the glory of the family name.

All societies have their pathologies. Witness the stuff women had to go through in the 50's and 60's in the US. There's always ugliness under the surface. People just adapt and accept things as normal. It will always be the case that some part of "normal" is messed up if you look at it the right way.

Thanks for revealing your biases so cheaply and easily.

For one Agassi, there are a thousand Chinese children pushed as hard that don't make it anywhere. That's the kids you should be considering when choosing a parenting style. They will only resent tennis and their father. There was no time for anything else, so mediocre tennis players is all they are. Thanks mum.

The question isn't whether you achieve the highest levels of success - it's how results stack up on average... I tend to think the achievement/duty style of parenting does well at producing good results on balance. A lot of the numbers bare this out, depending on what you're looking for.

> That's the kids you should be considering when choosing a parenting still. My children may be mediocre, but their happy memories will last them forever.

But they're not mutually exclusive... it seems to me that purpose, meaning, duty, striving outperforms gunning for happiness. But this is the opposite of what most people in the West believe right now.

I disagree respectfully. Everyone chooses their own parenting style, but I think a focus on achievement and duty in younger years leads to more well-being and a better foundation than just-do-whatever-everyone's-a-winner. There's lots of ground in between them, but a slight shift towards achievement/duty seems like it'd cure a lot of the angst and confusion and unhappiness among young people in the West right now.

Instead of pushing your kids to play violin to "get to State," I would suggest finding joy and art in music yourself. The former often produces mediocrity. The latter produces the sublime. There are tons of former "young prodigies" who put away their instrument as a forgotten childhood thing, whereas many of the best artists I know received a true joy in music from their parents.

It can even help with the girlfriend part.

Just pushing your kids to be #1 at something is like designing a system with a single point of failure. What if the kid is not able to achieve it? Obviously, with a large population striving to achieve the same thing, there will be failures. What would you do then?

Instead, parents should concentrate on raising stable, open and mature children. Children, who as adults, develop a good sense of discrimination and discretion. Children, who know that failure is a part of life and they better learn from their mistakes. Children who realize that not everybody can be #1, but it's still worth trying. Children who appreciate the journey, and not just fret over the destination.

There's more than one person close to me who feels this way -- if you've been raised to believe that #2 is the first loser, you may have a very hard time adapting to a real world in which success is often collaborative and has no end point.

I mean, think about bringing a fiercely competitive mindset to one of the many areas of life where in reality, if your peers/collaborators/friends/relatives (not competitors) do better work, that helps you towards your common goal.

I've been thinking & talking about this a lot lately, because I'm the father of an 17-month-old, and I want her to know how to work hard for long-term goals, without giving her crippling perfectionism (no, not everything worth doing is worth doing well...) and a permanently twisted view of life.

I think we judge success by a shallow metric. Money or fame or success at a single thing in like is not a gage of success. Success is made from many things, not this narrow list.

I attended computer engineering college in India, and here it gets extremely competitive. You've got gazillions of students fighting over a college seat not because they love programming or because they love software, but because being a computer engineer is key to financial success. So, they slog over their grade 12 scores and IIT-JEEs and CETs, and secure a seat.

Once they get into college, it's all about getting 'distinctions' - grades higher than 66%. Consistent results mean they get placed in-campus and escape the monotony and the soul-drubbing experience of a fresher's jobhunt.

And what then? It's all about the next appraisal, the next promotion, the next overseas opportunity. Better pay means better marriage prospects, a better lifestyle and a better social circle, whatever their definition of the latter term may be.

And in this pursuit of lifestyle comfort and material excellence, the only time they really, really care about code quality or software design is when it has a real and direct bearing on these prospects.

And that bugs me - not the pursuit of material comforts, but the relegation of software craftmanship to a second order of priority. I have an inkling that in their upbringing, the economic and social aspects of success were ALL that that was defined. Often to the detriment of every other aspect of quality. And it is this unbalanced focus that I take issue with.

66% correct, or 66th percentile? At every school I went to, 66% correct would be a failing grade.

And if you can get that consistently at the University of Pune, Bob's your uncle and the universe is your oyster.

I suspect by the time their kids reach school age, some of that parental competitiveness would return, but so far the evidence is clear which way the pendulum is swinging.

I have a feeling that this article is just product of our time, in which the sole remaining superpower of America suddenly realizing China is hot on its heels -- a fear that I think it's largely blown out of proportion. As a reaction there arise all this interest in China, including our parental style. I remember reading Gladwell's book "Outlier" in which he attributed math abilities to Chinese ancestors growing rice and not wheat. seriously? Such farce is more telling of the changing balance of power than parenting styles having anything to do with said change.

On a similar note, we Chinese have been interested in how Americans raise kids for decades. the thinking goes, surely you guys must be doing something right to hold your position in the world for so long.

Creativity and passion is not something you can teach your child--much less beat into them (this actually achieves the contrary). But yes, that doesn't mean some discipline and other blahs aren't important.

And don't call this Chinese parenting, my Russian-Jewish mother made me study in very similar ways when I was younger. Fortunately, for me she realized that rote memorization is not the linchpin of a successful career, but at best a tiny foundation stone in your studies.

There are only a few top spots. Only so much space in Ivy league schools, so these other people are needful, and they should be allowed to have their own brand of self-actualization without being seen as inferior.

Success that can be counted, does not count. We should aim as a society to redefine success as something that everyone can attain, such as happiness, tranquility and good health.

I teach chess to this 12 year old Chinese boy. He clearly has zero interest in progressing his game. And yet, his mother is there, always pushing him senselessly into a vocation he will be, at best, mediocre. Their time (and money) would be better spent on finding something that the kid really enjoys.

That's not what I said, not what I meant, and not what I believe... c'mon now, mis-summarizing someone's point of view leads to total breakdowns in communication. Let's not do that.

There's a couple points:

-What kind of parental focus produces better well-being in children? It's not binary, but I lean towards the achievement/duty side of the spectrum. I know this goes against the current dominant Western thought, but it's not a radical perspective historically speaking.

-When people do feel unhappy about their upbringing, it's worth considering that the grass always looks greener on the other side. A looser, more relaxed, less disciplined parenting style doesn't guarantee happiness - in fact, I think it might produce less happiness on balance. Again, I'm in the minority of current Western thought, but there's been a lot of very successful societies built on a childhood focus on duty, achievement, and service...

[1] http://www.famoushomeschoolers.net/bio_demaine.html -- Yeah, I know it's an odd site. Early google result, matches what I remember of his story.

The pernicious thing about this parenting style is that it appears to work very well for the first 18 years. Then, the child graduates from high-school, and goes to college. Some break down without the constraints imposed by hovering parents and constant scheduling. Some get pulled into the wrong crowds and end up doing questionable or illegal activities. But the most unlucky ones go through college just fine.

Why are these the most unlucky ones? Once they're done with the academic grind, they look around and have no goals. They never developed the ability to create their own goals - to be self directed. Not only is this a huge disadvantage in their personal lives, but it hurts job performance as well. No assignment at work is going to be as well defined as a school project. No manager will babysit these people as much their teachers and parents did. What ends up happening is that these people find themselves being surpassed by others who have less skill, as the others have much more self direction and the ability to push themselves without requiring external motivation.

--

Your positions there were good... I need to reflect and pick my words a lot more carefully when I write on something that touches people so closely like parenting. I am actually an admirer of the Chinese way except not the abusive jerk part of it. But I studied Chinese culture some - they're incredible. They move somewhere, dirt poor, and within 2-3 generations they're established, prosperous, educated, own businesses and real estate, have established families... I remember one time I was staying in a small inn in Amsterdam owned by a Chinese family, recent immigrants to the Netherlands. They'd rent all the rooms, and if every room got rented, the couple and their young son would go sleep in the lobby at midnight instead of their own room.

In the end, the place would only sell out maybe 10 nights per month, for a total of perhaps 800 euros per month for the inconvenience... but then that's about $12,000 USD per year they're banking by sacrificing their own comfort. Later, they'd for sure invest that into education, expanding in business, things like that. It's why Chinese are so successful anywhere.

But I should've stressed that I think the abusive and mean aspects of it are crap. I do think it's crap. But more self-sacrifice, achievement, duty, service... I don't know, I think America is way too far in the other direction. It's funny cuz I'm guessing our ideal parenting styles aren't very far apart. Lots of encouragement but also emphasizing it's not just do whatever makes you happy - delay gratification, serve worth causes, strive for more, better yourself, give your kids a much better life than you had, etc, etc.

That tells something about the common wisdom that to succeed at anything, you have to love what you do. I'm talking just about results here, of course, not quality of living.

For every success there will be 10 (or more) broken children who go through this "method". They will hate their parents. They will have a broken sense of self. They will not be socialized. They will have emotional problems, sometimes serious ones.

How do I know this? I've met the failed ones. I've never met a success from this method, either, and I'm 50.

The people that I've met that were a "success", were both smart, hard working and focused. And, they had one thing which is not praised much anymore: common sense.

I have known more smart people than I can count in my life. A fraction of them had much common sense or "life smarts". Yeah, they could run rings around me with their programming or math or whatever ability, but they often couldn't make a good decision to save their life.

Lastly, I'll say that whatever drive your child has, cultivate it. You cannot create drive, it either is or isn't.

Do you have any reply to this? http://fallibleideas.com/parenting-and-tradition