Well, there are two groups of companies. Companies that can't find the talent that they need in this country, and companies trying to save money.
There definitely is a STEM shortage, and you are being really dishonest if you say there isn't. Ask any hiring manager at a tech company. Facebook, Microsoft, Google, and many, many other companies do not underpay or maltreat their visa-holding employees in any way. It is primarily this class of companies that are asking for an expansion in the number of visas.
Several bills have been introduced in Congress that would have (further) restricted the ability of the less-nice companies to underpay immigrants or displace native-born workers. For example, S.744 from the 113th Congress.
It is wrong to paint all companies with the same brush.
No, there is not a STEM shortage because "STEM" is a nonsense term. The companies you mentioned don't want to hire anthropologists, general relativity theorists, large animal biologists, nuclear power engineers, differential geometry experts, meteorologists, pharmaceutical chemists, or most of the other diverse fields in STEM.
No, the shortage is only in from a much smaller subset of primarily programming related skills.
If there were a real shortage, FB and others would start their own training program, give people scholarships to attend for a year and get up to speed, then hire the best candidates from that pool. We are nowhere near there because it's cheaper to get people to pay for their own education (or get the government to pay for it), and hire from that.
Historical, that's similar to what happened when there were real labor shortages. After all, it's not like all the women welders during WWII came in knowing how to weld.
> No, the shortage is only in from a much smaller subset of primarily programming related skills.
Heh? Have you tried hiring quants, materials scientists, fluid mechanics experts, RF engineers, supply chain experts, etc.? I have, and know friends who have been on both sides of the job hunt in these areas. It is often quite likely that you can only find international people for a job opening. Then, given how shitty H1B and green card systems are, you come up against the same problem: you invest tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars on the person and put yourself at the mercy of an arbitrary visa.
Given any specialized skill with enough demand in the job market, there will likely be shortages because there are so few specialists. Also, if 10 people apply for a job, you interview 3 of them, 1 of them is an international and that international performs better than the other 2, as a company looking for talent, wouldn't you want to necessarily hire the best candidate? The immigration system is full of unfair and arbitrary roadblocks to hiring international candidates for legitimate jobs, while enabling semi-legitimate gaming of the system by mass-recruiters such as Indian software services companies.
The market is not as elastic as you think as say, for a commodity like steel, to talk so naively and inexactly about supply, demand, and shortage. Supply-demand-shortage dynamics is more like specialized drugs, luxury items, and so on: where you have very specific needs on the demand side (i.e., hiring companies) and very specific issues affecting the supply side (candidates with specialized training and skills)
Do you think that "STEM" is a meaningful term for setting national policy? I don't. Rather, I don't see it as any more useful than saying there's a "PhD shortage."
It can take a while to hire someone for a history department position. If a department wants to hire someone with expertise in, say, Bhutan history during Jigme Dorji, and it takes two years to fill that position, and the best candidate is from Argentina, would you say there is a general shortage of history majors and we need to change immigration policy because of it?
No, I don't think you would, because you realize that "Given any specialized skill with enough demand in the job market, there will likely be shortages because there are so few specialists".
"The immigration system is full of unfair and arbitrary roadblocks"
Totally agree. But I still say that "STEM" is a nonsense term which should not drive the change to that policy.
What's worse is that "STEM" means two different things. I think you'll agree that a paleontologist who studies whale evolution is solidly part of the "S" in STEM. There's one group of people who look at STEM broadly, as a way to encourage others to enter a complex and challenging field. They might say, "you should study whale evolution because STEM is important." This comes out the liberal arts and humanist tradition. I am more a member of this group, except I don't limit myself to STEM appreciation.
There's another group which sees STEM more in terms of the subset that can be applied to business problems, like quant, materials science, and fluid mechanics, and be very confused about why someone would want to travel to India to dig up whale fossils, much less why the government should pay for it.
I believe most policy makers are in the latter group, and more concerned about STEM helps business. This leaves out most of the "S" fields in STEM, and likely most of the "M" fields.
The idea that good programmers are as easily trainable as good welders is ridiculous. If that were the case, we wouldn't have a shortage.
My company actually does try to train people. We hire people who come out of coding camps like General Assembly -- and we actually pay these camps when we hire them. Students attend these camps for free.
After that, we pair program with them, and painstakingly explain various concepts to them. We hold them by the hand, and literally teach them. I found it amazing that my company had to do this, and shocking that they literally could not find good developers. My company is just looking for developers that can get shit done. We are not looking for rock stars, or master algorithm puzzle solvers. Just people who can build decent, functioning non-broken software.
FYI, I graduated very recently with a B.S. in Computer Science, and my total comp (incl. bonuses) is slightly over $150,000. And, at my company, the typical workday is from 10 am to 6 pm. I am not over-worked, or under-paid.
It is clear that you've neither been in a position of hiring developers, nor have an idea of what good programming skill is.
That explains why you have so little knowledge of labor history that you don't know what a "scab", is nor know of the strikes by people in a STEM field. You have neither the training nor the experience.
What you might take from that is that, while you are neither "over-worked, or under-paid", you are under-educated about history, and more specifically labor history.
Your last line continues your tiring practice of name calling. Please stop.
There is a time and place for everything. When a person makes remarks that are beyond a shadow of doubt hateful and xenophobic, naming those things (specifically) and calling them out is absolutely the right thing to do.
It would be morally wrong, cowardly, and reprehensibly politically correct not to do so.
Jesus said to the Pharisees: "You snakes, you brood of vipers, how will you escape being condemned to hell?"
So, no, I absolutely will not stop speaking the truth, and naming and calling out evil when I see it.
I have experienced an incredible amount of hate here. You hate me and despise me because I immigrated to this country (that too, legally). Your hatred and your contempt is based solely on the fact that I wasn't born here.
You believe that I deserve a lesser shot at life, and fewer rights and freedoms than you have, simply because I wasn't born here.
That is a disgusting, contemptible, elitist, and entitled set of beliefs. Especially considering that the families of most people in this country immigrated in the last few hundred years.
You and your ilk are a shame and a disgrace to this country, like the KKK. You do not embody the American spirit. Nor do you understand the values and principles this country was founded on. Specifically, you and your ilk embody the spirit of Andrew Jackson, and not that of Abraham Lincoln.
And what of your professed morality gives you the right to say that I don't "have an idea of what good programming skill is"? What evidence justifies that name calling? Or do you justify it because you have concluded I am the despised Enemy who deserves no better?
It's easy to dress yourself in the clothes of righteousness. The feeling of moral outrage is powerful. But your call to "ich kann nicht anders", used so profoundly by Martin Luther King Jr. while in the Birmingham jail, no more justifies your conclusion than it might justify King's namesakes' 'Von den Juden und ihren Lügen'.
I tell you again I AM AN IMMIGRANT. MY FATHER WAS AN IMMIGRANT. Your shots are clearly wild and disconnected from reality. You appear to believe that anyone who disagrees with you in the slightest is "beyond a shadow of doubt hateful and xenophobic".
Isn't life so clear when you live in a absolutist world of black&white world, and work on the side of Jesus? Too bad for you that that's not the real world. Nor is it world I aspire towards. I don't want to be subject to the whims of people who ignore evidence counter to their conclusions.
I'm talking about the developer shortage I've witnessed and dealt with myself first-hand, and heard about from many people.
You haven't said a word about the shortage, instead you resort to ad hominem attacks criticizing me of not being "educated in history".
Paul Graham, Sam Altman, and many other respected figures in industry have said many of the same things I have. You also clearly hold a deep belief in the lump of labor fallacy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy
This just goes to shows that your "no shortage" argument is a pure fiction that you obstinately refuse to let go, even when confronted with reality.
It isn't relevant here per se. It's a merger with a cousin thread where you did not know what "scab" meant and didn't know about any STEM-related strikes, when I had heard of some, and was quickly able to find several such examples.
"haven't said a word about the shortage"
Do try to read what I wrote rather than what you think I didn't write. In the g'g'parent comment to this one I said that STEM is a meaningless term, and that "the shortage is only in from a much smaller subset of primarily programming related skills." - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11311160 . I explicitly acknowledge that developer shortage is meaningful, even though I reject that STEM shortage is meaningful.
"ad hominem attacks"
Says the person who claims that I do not "have an idea of what good programming skill is".
Says the person who claims that ones_and_zeros is advocating a "very nativist, xenophobic, extremely right-wing and anti-progressive" view.
The Wikipedia entry for 'ad hominem' points out "Ad hominem reasoning is not always fallacious, for example, when it relates to the credibility of statements of fact." Let's go back to your statement "I've never heard of strikes occurring in STEM fields." If you had deep knowledge on the topic then that would be meaningful. If you had shallow knowledge then it carries little weight. In that thread I pointed out your apparent lack of knowledge. Now I pointed out the reason for it. This means I know to attach less weight to future statements you make. My attempt to assess your credibility is one of the non-fallacious uses of ad hominem reasoning.
"lump of labor fallacy"
Interesting. I'm saying that STEM is a meaningless term because it lumps people together too much. Where is the increased financial and political support for evolutionary linguistics, urban anthropology, and palynology, which are all part of the "S" in STEM? Since by my reading, most people at the policy level equate "STEM" fields with the subset of science, technology, engineering and math that helps solve more business-oriented problems.
How you turn that into a belief that I believe in a fixed lump of labor is beyond me.
There is not a STEM shortage according to many academics who study the issue and scientific research.
What you are claiming is a shortage is a lot like me claiming there is a shortage of Mercedes vehicles because I can't afford the ones on the market.
Supply will meet demand and I wish employers were encouraged to train already well educated people that are in this country already than lobby for the expansion of immigration, because to me the expansion of immigration just really looks like employers not willing to pay market rates.
There is also no anthropogenic climate change according to the scientists that many GOP congressmen love to cite.
There are an overwhelming number of organizations, companies, universities, and other institutions that have talked about the benefits of a less restrictive immigration system. You willfully chose to ignore all of them, and pick the ones that fit your false, preconceived, prejudiced beliefs.
Do you realize that what people like you are advocating is exclusion and severe restriction of immigration? It's very nativist, xenophobic, extremely right-wing and anti-progressive. Most of your ancestors would not have made it into the United States under the current system.
I'd personally love a less restrictive immigration system. But OPT and H1B are very restrictive and benefit employers much more than they benefit society. The government and those that control the immigration system serves the people and I think they sometimes forget that and come up with policies that are very beneficial to employers at the expense of the middle class. I think this is part of a major systemic issue that is leading to the squeeze on the middle class.
One of these days I'm going to write that blog titled something like "How to take a position against current immigration policies and not be called a xenophobe".
Even with all their flaws, these visas are extremely beneficial to the immigrants themselves, above anyone else. The rare and lucky opportunity to build a life in the United States and become a citizen of the United States is priceless, and just a dream from most.
This dream is out of reach for most people who would like to come here, and the few that do make it here use one of these visas. That is why people like me freak out when people on HN (and elsewhere) rail against these visas. If these visas were harder to get (than they already are), most of us (including me) wouldn't be here -- or worse, the ones of us already here would get deported.
There are two groups of people:
(1) those that call for a better system where companies cannot displace native-born workers, where the visa holders cannot be exploited, and have more freedom and an easier route to a green card
(2) people that call for a shutdown or massive reduction of all immigration, both legal and illegal; people that say there is no labor shortage whatsoever, so we shouldn't let anyone in
It is the second group that worries me.
Most Democratic lawmakers, and at least a third (to half) of the republican lawmakers take the earlier (1) view. They make me happy. E.g. Chuck Schumer.
It is just that there are a few lone voices in the mainstream media who hold on to the (2) view. Like the Tea Party. Their reasons have less to with jobs and wages, and much more to do with "preserving American culture and values".
What is shocking and sad is that I find many here on Hacker News, a place I expect to be fairly progressive, holding the same extreme anti-immigration views as the far-right.
You are not entitled to come to the US and work no matter how much you dream of it according to US law. You are young, make average $$ (and yes, at 150k total comp you are underpaid for a software developer in relation to the value you create), and you don't have skills that don't already exist within our borders or that can't be taught. I'm not too concerned about you not being here because you are actually displacing the best and brightest that I'd rather have immigrate here. The spirit of the H-1B program when it was introduced was to import the truly talented, not your average software developer with a bachelors degree. Over time the law has been bent and rewritten and abused by our industry to cut costs for the benefit of share holders and executives.
I've never come across such a hate and spite-filled reply before.
Like every other anti-immigrant person on HN, you stubbornly insist on believing in lies:
> But OPT and H1B are very restrictive and benefit employers
Have you ever been on OPT or an H-1B? I don't find either one restrictive. They restrict you to jobs related to your major, but they both allow you to change jobs freely. I can get any tech job I want, because practically every company is willing to do an H-1B transfer.
You are lying when you say it is restrictive.
> the H-1B program when it was introduced was to import the truly talented
What is your definition of "truly talented"? A PhD? Nobel Prize winner? Most of the immigrant $100M+ startup founders would likely not be allowed in the country under your definition. And you say: "the law has been abused"? The law requires: (1) a bachelor's degree in the job area, (2) job offer at prevailing wages or higher. Those are the conditions the law set.
You are lying when you say the law says otherwise.
Also, I don't mean to boast, but $150k is definitely not average. According to DOL, it is in the top 20th percentile for software developers in NYC metropolitan area. The average is $111,120, c.f. http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes151132.htm
You lie yet again.
You keep touting lies, and refuse to stop believing in those lies when confronted with the truth.
Unless you are native American, your ancestors immigrated here in the last couple hundred years. Do you know what standard was required of immigrants then? None. The majority of immigrants back then (from Europe) were actually illiterate. Your hatefulness, heartlessness, and callousness are repugnant, shameful, and an anathema to this country.
There is absolutely no STEM shortage at the Facebook/Google level. Google has been on the record many times that they're happy rejecting good applicants in order to reduce the risk of hiring a bad candidate. That's not what hiring during a shortage looks like.
This is so very true, and not only that, they use their ridiculous exclusionary and arbitrary hiring practices as a self-enforced proof that they absolutely need more low cost H1B workers.
I find it willfully ignorant, hateful, and racist how you keep demeaning immigrant workers by characterizing them as "low cost".
I graduated very recently with a B.S. in Computer Science, and my total comp (incl. bonuses) at my current company is slightly over $150,000. I am not over-worked, or under-paid. (I have never met any of these "cheap workers" myself, but I'm sure they exist in some corners.)
It is disgusting, dishonest and offensive how your portray every H-1B visa holder as a "low cost" worker.
You most likely haven't met the low cost H1B's because you are so new to the industry or the 1 or 2 companies you've worked for aren't big companies that are outsourcing their work force. (This is not a criticism.)
The anger that some feel, is towards employers who say their is a STEM shortage but what they mean is that they can't hire someone cheaply enough. As Joel Spolsky said:
"Now, let's review some microeconomics. In a free market, it is almost axiomatic that the market always clears. That's a technical term that means that when somebody tries to sell something, if they are willing to accept the market price, they will be able to sell it, and when somebody wants to buy something, if they are willing to pay the market price, they will be able to buy it. It's just a matter of both sides accepting the market price.
The trouble comes when people are not realistic about market prices. "
>There definitely is a STEM shortage, and you are being really dishonest if you say there isn't.
1) STEM is a term so board to be nonsensical in this context.
2) There may be some self-imposed "shortage" but that doesn't mean anything. Anyone can come up with a job with qualifications impossible to meet. Especially if this is a fake [1] job opening created solely so you can say "shortage!"
IMO, there is plenty of dishonesty going around, from both sides of this argument:
A) "H-1B are the best and brightest of the world!"
B) "H-1B is only about hiring cheaper programers!"
Looking at the publicly available H-1B data, it is pretty clear (to me, at least) that both these arguments are caricatures - some truth, but huge exaggerations.
Everyone who holds on tight to one extreme of this spectrum, vociferously arguing against the existence of other cases look dishonest to me.
Congratulations on constructing two straw men so you can polarize the discussion, declare "a pox on both their houses" and position yourself as the moderate. That's a refreshing new technique that irritates no one.
> Well, there are two groups of companies. Companies that can't find the talent that they need in this country, and companies trying to save money.
how are the two things different?
Obviously, as you raise wages, you gain access to a larger pool of applicants.
I am not making a moral judgment about people who are unwilling to pay more than X for a service... but my point is just that in a free market, "there is not enough supply of service X" means exactly the same thing as "the price of service X is too high"
If there aren't enough STEM candidates in the US, pay more. How many smart people right now go into law and finance, both fields of which have possibly too many candidates?
I don't think that a degree was ever necessary, there's always been self taught people. It's just the amount of accessible info on the Internet makes it much easier to self teach nowadays.
I don't know about Facebook/Google specifically but some companies will only interview/hire people with experience/know how in the very specific technology stack they use. I guess because they don't want the employee to "waste" time learning a new language/framework.
You miss out on some great engineers that way. Thankfully my job doesn't require new hires to know the syntax of any particular programming language.
I'm sure that's true for startup-y type companies.. but I'm in Minnesota (3M, Best Buy, Target, Honeywell) where unless you know someone even getting in the door for a first interview without a degree can prove impossible.
Oh yeah, depends totally on company policy for sure. I was just responding to the "anymore" part and adding in another reason why some companies claim "shortage."
There definitely is a STEM shortage, and you are being really dishonest if you say there isn't. Ask any hiring manager at a tech company. Facebook, Microsoft, Google, and many, many other companies do not underpay or maltreat their visa-holding employees in any way. It is primarily this class of companies that are asking for an expansion in the number of visas.
Several bills have been introduced in Congress that would have (further) restricted the ability of the less-nice companies to underpay immigrants or displace native-born workers. For example, S.744 from the 113th Congress.
It is wrong to paint all companies with the same brush.